Firearms Discussion
I have been having a very good discussion with another blogger in the Political section of my blog. The discussion turned to firearms, and I thought that it would be better to have it in this section instead. I have edited out all non-firearms-related content.
Please click on "Comments" to see the discussion.
Please click on "Comments" to see the discussion.
posted by Calan at 11:22
2 Comments:
Exerpts from origianl post by Calan found at http://calanspolitics.blogspot.com/2005/05/minuteman-project-conclusion.html
I have learned that the Second Amendment is even more important than I had realized. I thought I had this one figured out, but there is so much more to the right to keep and bear arms. The Minuteman Project was a group standing up to the government DEMANDING that they do their job, a job that the government does not want to do. Had we not been an armed group, I have very little doubt that we would not all have been arrested on some bogus charge. Rumor has it that it was discussed anyway by our wonderful Governor Napolitano, but she decided it was better to "ignore us." Our right to keep and bear arms protected our right to assemble peacefully, of that I have no doubt. The biggest thing I learned is that the simple right to keep and bear arms did this- we never fired a shot, nor did we threaten to. Oh yeah, our guns also kept us safe from drug runners who I am sure left us alone because they knew we could (and would) fight back.
I have learned that no one in the ACLU can stomach the sight of a good guy with a gun. And when one tries to strike up friendly conversation, they speak in one-word sentences, afraid to make eye contact, while hurrying to their cars to drive away as fast as possible.
12:25 PM
Anonymous said...
[...]
“I have learned that no one in the ACLU can stomach the sight of a good guy with a gun.”
How does one know a good guy with a gun from a bad guy with a gun?
9:37 AM
Calan said...
I'd be happy to explain...
[...]
How do you know a bad guy with a gun from a good guy with a gun... This question has so many levels it's frightening. I'll answer a few without getting them confused.
-A PRACTICAL ANSWER: if the gun is holstered and visible, you have little to fear. While both good guys and bad guys conceal, bad guys intending to do bad things nearly never carry open.
-AN OBVIOUS ANSWER: another way to answer is that you simply can't tell, which is why I carry a gun, and it’s why YOU should carry a gun too. The police can't respond faster than a speeding bullet, so it's ultimately up to you to defend yourself and your family from the ones that end up being the bad guys.
-THE “GUNS ARE NOT EVIL” ANSWER: I would also like to answer by saying that the question itself hints on guns = bad. How can you tell a good guy WITHOUT a gun from a bad guy WITHOUT a gun? The fact that someone has a gun means nothing about "goodness" or "badness."
I will elaborate a bit with a hypothetical, bear with me. If I was standing in front of you in McDonalds wearing a gun on my hip, would you feel worried? Would you wonder if I was going to rob the store? What if your kids were standing right there next to all this? Now instead, what if it were a cop in front of you with his service gun on his hip? Would you feel differently? The fact is that as far as your safety goes, you are equally as safe with me as you are with the cop (if not even more so if you look at the statistics), and in either case you are safer than having no good guys with guns around at all (because what if a bad guy with a gun walks in?).
The fact that someone has a gun does not mean they are good, it does not mean that they are bad. I carry a gun for the same reason the police do- to protect myself and to protect those around me if the need ever arises (I’d rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it).
-THE “YOU MISSED THE POINT” ANSWER: The point I was making however is that the ACLU that I met down there simply can't imagine any good person in possession of a gun (except for the government I would assume, but even this I would not be so sure about). They were scared to death. I never did a thing to them other than be as polite as possible, but they ran in terror whenever I simply tried to greet them, never taking their eyes off the gun. To them the gun was more than a tool, it was pure evil forged into tangible reality in the depths of Mount Doom. I might as well have had the One Ring around my neck. Never mind my character, never mind my intentions, never mind my religious obsession about keeping the law, never mind my love for this country- I had a gun, therefore I wanted to kill whatever was in sight. People with guns simply can't help it. The emanating evil simply takes over their mind and they begin to search for the next child they can murder.
That brings me to the point of my statement. The statement wasn't intended to say that they couldn't tell if I was a good guy or a bad guy. It was intended to say that they simply could not compute seeing someone who is a good guy with a gun, so their mind simply defaulted to "he must be evil." That’s what was in their eyes.
2:50 PM
Anonymous said...
I walk out of a McDonalds and see you standing there with a gun on your hip, what the heck makes you think that I would feel safe? You can be sure I'd be wondering what your doing, making me think I was safer then if a policeman was standing there would not be something I would be think.
5:28 PM
Calan said...
And that's exactly my point. You see a gun and instantly you would assume I am planning something bad or that I am not to be trusted, but the cop you would trust. Reality is very different however. I would protect your life if it came to it just as quickly as the cop would, as would almost everyone else who commonly carries a gun.
I am curious about a few things...
What would honestly be going through your head if you saw me with a gun on my hip at McDonalds?
What would you do about it (assuming we are in a state where it is legal)?
What state do you live in?
Would you ever carry a gun? If not, why not?
8:50 PM
Calan said...
One more question:
My wife carries all the time too. What would you think if you saw her walk into McDonalds with a 9-month-old and a gun on her hip?
8:58 PM
Anonymous said...
To be honest, I see anyone packing outside of a McDonalds I think I'm looking at a nut case.
I would split and call the cops.
Yes I own guns but I do not carry unless I'm hunting.
Ohio and we have conceal carry laws.
But I don't understand how I'm to tell you from a bad guy. I know how long it takes to unstrap a pistol and pull it out, not long. Really, you can come to Cincinati Ohio, see me walking down the street with a gun on my hip and you can tell I'm a good guy? And you would feel safer then if you saw a policeman?
8:05 PM
Calan said...
First I would like to thank you for returning to post, I am enjoying our conversation.
Now both AZ and OH are open carry states (OH has preemption for permit holders only, local laws apply). If you called the cops (especially in AZ) you would be told to stop wasting their time- carrying a gun is legal.
My comments about being safer with me than with a cop come from a statistic- "11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person." (Gun Facts, p45, www.gunfacts.info) I highly recommend you visit that site and download the free e-book and look through it.
Answering your question- if you can see my gun, you can usually tell if I am a bad guy. If I am pointing my gun / shooting at you or those around you, I am a bad guy. If it is holstered until someone commits the previous situation, I am a good guy. If I don't have a gun at all, I could still be either. “90% of all violent crimes in the U.S. do not involve firearms of any type” (p40). You can bet the remaining 10% hide their gun. You can also bet that the 90% without the guns can kill you just as dead with a steak knife he stole from Denny’s, because his knife is 100 times more effective than the gun that you don’t have. But since he would be hiding that until it’s too late, so again you wouldn’t know then either. Anyone can be a bad guy, it doesn’t take a gun. It’s the person, not the weapon. And since the bad guys nearly always appear unarmed until they attack, you simply never know for sure about ANYONE. Therefore I very highly recommend you take a concealed carry course and start carrying, and stop relying on someone else to protect you: “The courts have consistently ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect individuals” (p52), nor can they. I have no doubt they would if they could, but it simply is not possible. “95% of the time police arrive too late to prevent a crime or arrest the suspect.” (p53)
I am still curious why you would think someone who is carrying is a nut case. Please explain this to me, I honestly don't understand. These questions are not attacks, I honestly want to understand where you are coming from. Why is being armed so bad? Why would you think that someone who is carrying a holstered gun is worth calling the police about? Why do you think that because someone has a gun they are actively looking for a reason to use it? Why do you think differently about police? Why would you prefer trusting your life to the criminal robbing you before you would carry a gun? Why do you WANT to be defenseless?
1:58 AM
Anonymous said...
[...]
Sorry but here in Cincinnati we see a women go in a place with a baby on one hip and a gun on the other we think we have a real nut case on our hands.
Didn't see anything like this the last time I was in Tucson either. Now you go on down into Kentucky one can see women carrying guns and other strange things.
The last Murder near Cincinnati was a wife shooting her husband 7 times with a 9mm,family and friends all say she was the nicest person.
Spent along weekend down at Lukeville hiking in Organ Pipe N.M.(a few years ago)went unarmed the whole time. Crazy huh?
[...]
8:48 PM
Calan said...
I still don't see why wanting to protect myself and my family makes me a nut case, but everyone is entitled to an opinion. I would rather be considered a nut case than having no means of self defense if/when it eventually does happen.
You mentioned a murder in Cincinnati- again it just shows you that you never know who or when. You also mentioned that you went hiking for a weekend unarmed and nothing happened. You could work in the worst part of town and never have anything happen at all, but then get robbed in the parking lot of the nicest restaurant in town. Then again it might happen on the way to work. These events are relatively rare in any given individual's life, but they happen, and they happen randomly. You don't know when, you don't know where, and you don't know who.
I hope you have taken the time to take a look at that e-book. I'd like to know what you think.
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9:50 AM
Patches said...
Ok, a few more questions.
[...]
“Had we not been an armed group, I have very little doubt that we would not all have been arrested on some bogus charge.”
Does this mean you would have resisted arrests with arms?
[...]
Ok, I understand why you feel safe bring armed, but I’m telling you it doesn’t make me feel safe. I looked thru the gunfacts thing, nothing I haven’t read before. Statistic as you know don’t mean a lot as they can be used to prove anything. I’m not anti-gun, but think something needs to be done about them as far as crime goes. And I think the NRA should be the ones to come up with something. I haven’t been anywhere that I felt the need to be armed, except for Yellowstone Park when a bear came walking over the ridge. A can of pepper spray kind of left me feeling a little lacking in fire power. (black bear) AS in most cities, there are parts of Cincinnati that I would feel unsafe in, armed or unarmed.
I’ll most likely have more questions for you.
Rob
[...]
"Ok, I understand why you feel safe bring armed, but I’m telling you it doesn’t make me feel safe."
Then get a gun for yourself! Don't rely on me to protect you, don't rely on those around you, and don't rely on the police. It doesn't mean you have to shoot everyone you see, and with a CCW you don't have to worry that everyone around you thinks you are a nut case. But then you can protect yourself, by yourself, without relying on anyone, IF the need ever arises. You can also decide not to draw your gun and to simply give them your wallet if that is what the safest thing is to do. But at least you would have the option. Look into the Kel-Tec P3AT- EXTREMELY concealable, and still effective enough.
"Statistic as you know don’t mean a lot as they can be used to prove anything."
I will be the first to admit this. By all means look at the statistics in the book critically and make up your own mind. But don't ignore them completely simply because they are statistics. It's generally not the statistics that are a lie, but how they are worded and the conclusions that are made CAN be. That's what you need to be critical of, and I encourage that in this case too.
"I’m not anti-gun, but think something needs to be done about them as far as crime goes. And I think the NRA should be the ones to come up with something."
I have to be honest- I have a hard time seeing you as "not anti-gun" when you think of someone as a "nut case" for carrying a gun. Please feel free to show me how I can be wrong on this.
The NRA has come up with a solution, but people don't want to hear it- put a gun into the hands of as many law-abiding people as possible. It is provable, scientific fact that when the law-abiding have guns, violent crime drops. It is repeatable, and it holds true every time it is tried. The more likely it is for a victim to be armed (or those near the victim), the more afraid the criminal is to attack.
All statistics aside, crime rates, nut cases, whatever, let's put all that aside for a moment. There is one reason I carry a gun that trumps all others, and it is important to understand that reason. I want the RIGHT to defend myself. It's about rights more than anything else. It's about not having to cower in the corner crying into my cell phone asking the 911 dispatcher how much longer is it going to take before police arrive; I don't want to be forced to rely on the government for my personal protection. It's about demanding that my government respect the Constitution that every member swore to uphold. It's about demanding that the government presume my innocence until proven guilty instead of assuming I am going to do evil with a gun and making me prove otherwise before I am allowed to carry one. Yes, AZ is an open-carry state, and they don't make me prove my innocence before I can carry. But if the right is not exercised, it will be lost. I can hear it now - "How many people actually open carry? Yes there are a very small few, so this new ban will affect only a very small number of people." People forget that just because an unalienable right is not exercised does not mean it ceases to be unalienable. Because people do forget that, I exercise the right.
And why does an unalienable right have to be “allowed” by the government? And why do we Americans tolerate that mentality from our government?
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